democratic debate

Some excerpts from Wednesday's debate among Democratic presidential candidates in Hanover, N.H.

SEN. JOE BIDEN

When asked if he would pledge that by the end of his first term there would be no U.S. troops in Iraq, Biden said: "If, in fact, there is no political solution by the time I am president, then I would bring them out, because all they are is fodder. But if you go along with the Biden plan that got 75 votes today, and you have a stable Iraq, like we have in Bosnia ― we've had 20,000 Western troops in Bosnia for 10 years. Not one has been killed. Not one. The genocide has ended. So it would depend on the circumstances when I became president."

When asked if he would consider raising the income cap on Social Security taxes, Biden said: "The answer is yes. I'm probably the only one up here who's going to say that, but the truth of the matter is, you stated it. You're either going to cut benefits, or you're going to go ahead and raise taxes above the first $97,000."

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SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON

When asked if she would match Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani's promise to use any means to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power, Clinton said: "I will do everything I can to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power, including the use of diplomacy, the use of economic sanctions, opening up direct talks. We haven't even tried. That's what is so discouraging about this. So then you have the Republican candidates on the other side jumping to the kind of statements that you just read to us."

"You know, when my husband left office after moving us toward a balanced budget and a surplus, we had a plan to make Social Security solvent until 2055. Now, because of the return to deficits, we have lost 14 years of solvency. It's now projected to be solvent until 2041. Getting back on a path to fiscal responsibility is absolutely essential."

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SEN. CHRIS DODD

On communities providing sanctuary to illegal immigrants: "We need to have a far better system in place that stops that flow coming in, to deal with the 12 million to 20 million who are here illegally. If in the meantime here we're dealing with children, we're dealing with crime problems, we're dealing with health issues at the local community, then you need to allow these local communities to do that. If it means temporarily engaging in a sanctuary protection here, then so be it if that protects our country."

When asked what he meant when he said he understands why President Bush would want Sen. Clinton to be the Democratic nominee: "Well, if I were Hillary Clinton, I'd be very worried. This was the same guy who said, 'Way to go, Brownie,' here. And I think, 'Mission accomplished,' was the other one I saw. So, in terms of being a prognosticator of events, I'd say the president has somewhat of a bad record when it comes to that."

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FORMER SEN. JOHN EDWARDS

"There was a very important vote cast in the United States Senate today. And it was, basically, in a resolution calling the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. I voted for this war in Iraq, and I was wrong to vote for this war. And I accept responsibility for that. Senator Clinton also voted for this war. We learned a very different lesson from that. ... what I learned in my vote on Iraq was you cannot give this president the authority and you can't even give him the first step in that authority because he cannot be trusted."

When asked if he would consider raising the income cap on Social Security taxes, Edwards said: "But I don't understand why somebody who makes $50 million a year pays Social Security tax on the first $97,000 and somebody ― and not on the rest ― while somebody who makes $85,000 a year pays Social Security tax on every dime of their income. ... I do have some difference with some of my colleagues who I've heard talk about this. I think we have to be very careful to protect the middle class, so specifically ― if I can be very specific ― what I would do as president is I would create a protective zone between $97,000 up to around $200,000."

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FORMER SEN. MIKE GRAVEL

When asked how he would advise his Democratic colleagues to end the War in Iraq, Gravel said: "Well, the first thing, you stop the debate by voting every single day on cloture. Every day. Twenty days, and you'll overcome cloture. The president vetoes the law. It comes back to the Congress. And in the House at noon every single day you vote to override the president's veto. And in 40 days, the American people will have weighed in, put the pressure on those. You tell me that the votes aren't there ― you go get them by the scruff of the neck, that's what you do. You make them vote."

"My God, we're just starting a war right today. ... another resolution and it is essentially a fig leaf to let George Bush go to war with Iran. I want to congratulate Biden for voting against it, Dodd for voting against it. And I am ashamed of you, Hillary, for voting for it. You're not going to get another shot at this because what happens if this war ensues, we invade, and they're looking for an excuse to do it. And Obama was not even there to vote.

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REP. DENNIS KUCINICH

On Iraq: "I believe that if we're really going to have peace, no partition; let them unite. We remember what Lincoln said years ago, it's true for Iraq as well: A house divided against itself cannot stand. If we divide Iraq, essentially we're going to be setting the stage for more war, and I stand for strength through peace, a whole new approach."

When asked about Cleveland going bankrupt when he was mayor: "I took a stand on behalf of the people of Cleveland to save a municipal electric system. The banks and the utilities in Cleveland, the private utilities, were trying to force me to sell that system. And so on December 15th, 1978, I told the head of the biggest bank, when he told me I had to sell the system in order to get the city's credit renewed, that I wasn't going to do it because, you know, I remember where I came from. I remembered my parents counting pennies to pay the utility bills in one of the many apartments we lived in."

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SEN. BARACK OBAMA

When asked if he would pledge that by the end of his first term there would be no U.S. troops in Iraq, Obama said: "I think it's hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there. What I can promise is that if there are still troops in Iraq when I take office ... then I will drastically reduce our presence there to the mission of protecting our embassy, protecting our civilians, and making sure that we're carrying out counterterrorism activities there."

Speaking about universal health care, Obama said: "The issue is not going to be who has these particular plans. It has to do with who can inspire and mobilize the American people to get it done and open up the process. If it was lonely for Hillary, part of the reason it was lonely, Hillary, was because you closed the door to a lot of potential allies in that process. At that time, 80 percent of Americans already wanted universal health care, but they didn't feel like they were let into the process.

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GOV. BILL RICHARDSON
HANOVER, N.H. - Sen. Hillary Clinton scored with a Democratic audience last night by contradicting her husband's belief that a terrorist could be tortured to foil an imminent plot - but what observers didn't know is she was contradicting herself, too.

"It cannot be American policy, period," Clinton (D-N.Y.) told debate moderator Tim Russert, who asked if there should be a presidential exemption to allow the torture of a terror chieftain if authorities knew a bomb was about to go off, but didn't know where it was.

When Russert revealed ex-President Bill Clinton advocated such a policy on a recent NBC "Meet the Press" appearance, Hillary Clinton won huge applause from the Dartmouth College audience with a deadpan comeback:

"Well, I'll talk to him later."

She may have to give herself that talk, too.

Last October, Clinton told the Daily News: "If we're going to bepreparing for the kind of improbable but possible eventuality, then it has to be done within the rule of law."

She said then the "ticking time bomb" scenario represents a narrow exception to her opposition to torture as morally wrong, ineffective and dangerous to American soldiers.

"In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the President, and the President must be held accountable," she said.

Clinton's campaign did not immediately respond to numerous requests for comment on the eye-popping contradiction.

Her pirouette came during a debate at Dartmouth in which Democratic rivals declared open season on Clinton - and Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani, too.

The ex-New York mayor came under fire for voicing his readiness to attack Iran to keep it from developing nuclear weapons. Clinton was accused by some of her rivals of playing into President Bush's hands by voting for an anti-Iran Senate resolution.

"I think what Mayor Giuliani said was irresponsible, because we have not yet come to that point," said Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), arguing there is a lot of diplomacy to be done first.

"Rudy Giuliani doesn't know what the heck he's talking about," zinged Sen. Joseph Biden (D-Del.). "He's the most uninformed person on American foreign policy now running for President."

Giuliani's campaign declined to respond.

Former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) hit Clinton for voting yesterday to name Iran's elite Republican Guard a sponsor of terrorism - which he said was the first step to war with Iran and all too similar to the vote both cast for the Iraq war. Cantankerous former Sen. Mike Gravel (D-Alaska) pointed at her and said, "I am ashamed of you, Hillary."

Clinton defended her vote, saying it would let the U.S. "impose sanctions on the primary leaders to try to begin to put some teeth into all this talk about dealing with Iran." She said there was much to to be done to try to achieve a political solution before discussing military options.

Several times she refused to give answers, but she couldn't duck when Russert threw her a curveball, asking if she would back the Yankees or Chicago Cubs, her childhood home team, if they met in the World Series. So she waffled.

"Well, I would probably have to alternate sides," she said.


"And my position is this: that you cannot start the reconciliation of Iraq, a political settlement, an all-Muslim peacekeeping force to deal with security and boundaries and possibly this issue of a separation, which is a plan that I do believe makes sense, until we get all our troops out, because they have become targets."

"We need to find ways, number one, to increase security at the border with more detection equipment, more border patrol ― not this silly wall. Secondly, those that knowingly hire illegal workers need to be punished. Third, a foreign policy relationship with Mexico where you say to Mexico, start giving jobs to your people; at the very least, don't give them maps on the easiest place to cross. And, lastly, a legalization program ― earned legalization, not amnesty, not citizenship, but a process where they can earn their way into America."